Indy's auto pistol not a Colt .45

Posted by Browning from srt-totalcontrol-72.dialup.ndak.net on June 10, 1999 at 11:28:05:

In Reply to: and a little more stuff.... posted by Michaelson on June 10, 1999 at 09:41:52:

: : ONLY THREE CALIBERS WERE USED IN THE TRILOGY. THE .455 WEBLEY CTG. WAS USEDIN L.C., AND ONE OF THE 4" BBL. "N" FRAME S&W'S IN RAIDERS.
: : THE .45 ACP CTG. WAS USED IN THE OTHER S&W IN RAIDERS,AND THE 9MM PARABELLUM WAS USED IN THE P-35 BROWNING HI-POWER IN THE BAR FIGHT IN
: : IN RAIDERS. WITHOUT GOING INTO MUCH TECHNICAL JARGON, ONE SHOT STOPS IN DEFENSIVE SITUATIONS, USING THE AMMUNITION OF THE PERIOD, ARE 60.81% FOR THE 9MM, 64.02% FOR THE .45 ACP, WITH THE .455 WEBLEY IN THE SAME BALLPARK AS THE .45 ACP. HOPE THIS HELPS, FORRESTALL

: Well, the pistol in the bar was not a Browning High Power, but a Colt 1911 .45 ACP, and it was seen again in his possession on the freighter in close up. You forgot to mention the Colt New Service .45 that fell out of the window in Temple of Doom, that we can assume was also a .45 ACP with half or full moon clips for semi rimmed brass as that's what the lions share of them were. There were a few in .45 Colt, but with him carrying a 1911 .45 ACP, why carry two different caliber rounds ? We don't know that the Webley is indeed chambered for .455 Webley, as the revolvers available for US consumption were re-reamed for .45 ACP during and after WWI, .455 ammo wasn't that commonly found in the US in the 1930's, if at all, and more than likely Indy would have carried this version that would also accept the half moon clips for .45 ACP loading as were in the N frame Smith and the Colts, but all this is conjecture of course as we never see him reload the Webley. Your one shot stop info is interesting, but I'm assuming you're using info for average/standard over the counter type powder loads and not taking into account what bullet loading may be in the brass, as you know that will change the factor tremendously in terms of one shot stopping power, even using 1930's technology. If you want to read a really extensive (and exhausting) study of this, read the research by Dr. Carroll Peters of our Institute (University of Tennessee Space Institute, Tullahoma, TN). His report is quoted quite frequently in Guns and Ammo regarding stopping capabilities of rounds from the turn of the century to date. Granted, compared to today's available ammo, his rounds were pretty anemic, as the metalurgy of the guns were also not par with today's stuff, but the large calber weapons used were pretty potent defenses againest what ever was thrown at our hero. Regards. Michaelson

Danger, long message ahead. Actually, I believe Forrestall is correct about the Browning Hi-Power 9mm (P-35). I've gotten into this discussion with friends before. Here's where to look. If you freeze frame the bar fight at the point where Indy says "Whiskey!" and also at the point where Indy is fighting hand-to-hand with the big thug when Toht runs out behind them with his burned hand you get a good look at the auto pistol. The last inch or two of the slide on the Hi-Power is narrower than the rear portion and this leaves a very distinguishable vertical line that runs from the top to the bottom of the slide at the point where it narrows. The M1911s don't have this feature as the slide is the same width from hammer to muzzle. In the film this line can easily be seen in those two parts of the scene. You can see it elsewhere in the scene but the two examples above are the best. (If anyone is unfamiliar with the two guns look at the Browning and Colt websites, they have pictures of the current models of both guns) Another couple of points. The gun appears to have a bobbed "combat" hammer instead of the spur type found on the Colt. The original P-35s came with bobbed type hammer. This is much more difficult to see in the movie. Finally, and I may be stretching here, but on the boat towards the end of the movie, when Indy sticks the gun in his belt, the shape of the pistol's handle looks wider than a colt's and I can't see the grip safety that the colt has. The Browning doesn't have this safety and it does have a wider grip due to the high capacity magazine. I'll admit that at this point in the movie I was pretty much convinced it was a Browning and the gun is hard to see clearly in this scene so my opinion may have been biased. However, you should be able to determine that it is a P-35 based on the bar scene alone. I've heard of an article (Guns and Ammo, I think) that listed the Colt 1911 as his auto pistol in Raiders. They may be the experts and I'm just an amateur "pistollero" but I really think they were mistaken. Take a look and let me know what you think. :)

-Browning

Browning Hi-Power

Follow Ups:

Is to.....(insert tongue sticking out here (grins)) Michaelson 11:42:09 6/10/99 (5)
- Took another look-see..... Michaelson 14:03:26 6/10/99 (0)
- hmmm Browning 13:59:32 6/10/99 (3)
  - Re: hmmm Michaelson 14:05:55 6/10/99 (2)
    - Re: hmmm Forrestall 21:16:05 6/10/99 (1)
      - Double hmmm...... Michaelson 08:22:30 6/11/99 (0)

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: : : ONLY THREE CALIBERS WERE USED IN THE TRILOGY. THE .455 WEBLEY CTG. WAS USEDIN L.C., AND ONE OF THE 4" BBL. "N" FRAME S&W'S IN RAIDERS.
: : : THE .45 ACP CTG. WAS USED IN THE OTHER S&W IN RAIDERS,AND THE 9MM PARABELLUM WAS USED IN THE P-35 BROWNING HI-POWER IN THE BAR FIGHT IN
: : : IN RAIDERS. WITHOUT GOING INTO MUCH TECHNICAL JARGON, ONE SHOT STOPS IN DEFENSIVE SITUATIONS, USING THE AMMUNITION OF THE PERIOD, ARE 60.81% FOR THE 9MM, 64.02% FOR THE .45 ACP, WITH THE .455 WEBLEY IN THE SAME BALLPARK AS THE .45 ACP. HOPE THIS HELPS, FORRESTALL

: : Well, the pistol in the bar was not a Browning High Power, but a Colt 1911 .45 ACP, and it was seen again in his possession on the freighter in close up. You forgot to mention the Colt New Service .45 that fell out of the window in Temple of Doom, that we can assume was also a .45 ACP with half or full moon clips for semi rimmed brass as that's what the lions share of them were. There were a few in .45 Colt, but with him carrying a 1911 .45 ACP, why carry two different caliber rounds ? We don't know that the Webley is indeed chambered for .455 Webley, as the revolvers available for US consumption were re-reamed for .45 ACP during and after WWI, .455 ammo wasn't that commonly found in the US in the 1930's, if at all, and more than likely Indy would have carried this version that would also accept the half moon clips for .45 ACP loading as were in the N frame Smith and the Colts, but all this is conjecture of course as we never see him reload the Webley. Your one shot stop info is interesting, but I'm assuming you're using info for average/standard over the counter type powder loads and not taking into account what bullet loading may be in the brass, as you know that will change the factor tremendously in terms of one shot stopping power, even using 1930's technology. If you want to read a really extensive (and exhausting) study of this, read the research by Dr. Carroll Peters of our Institute (University of Tennessee Space Institute, Tullahoma, TN). His report is quoted quite frequently in Guns and Ammo regarding stopping capabilities of rounds from the turn of the century to date. Granted, compared to today's available ammo, his rounds were pretty anemic, as the metalurgy of the guns were also not par with today's stuff, but the large calber weapons used were pretty potent defenses againest what ever was thrown at our hero. Regards. Michaelson

: 
: Danger, long message ahead.  Actually, I believe Forrestall is correct about the Browning Hi-Power 9mm (P-35).  I've gotten into this discussion with friends before.  Here's where to look.  If you freeze frame the bar fight at the point where Indy says "Whiskey!" and also at the point where Indy is fighting hand-to-hand with the big thug when Toht runs out behind them with his burned hand you get a good look at the auto pistol.  The last inch or two of the slide on the Hi-Power is narrower than the rear portion and this leaves a very distinguishable vertical line that runs from the top to the bottom of the slide at the point where it narrows.  The M1911s don't have this feature as the slide is the same width from hammer to muzzle.  In the film this line can easily be seen in those two parts of the scene.  You can see it elsewhere in the scene but the two examples above are the best.  (If anyone is unfamiliar with the two guns look at the Browning and Colt websites, they have pictures of the current models of both guns)  Another couple of points.  The gun appears to have a bobbed "combat" hammer instead of the spur type found on the Colt.  The original P-35s came with bobbed type hammer.  This is much more difficult to see in the movie.  Finally, and I may be stretching here, but on the boat towards the end of the movie, when Indy sticks the gun in his belt, the shape of the pistol's handle looks wider than a colt's and I can't see the grip safety that the colt has.  The Browning doesn't have this safety and it does have a wider grip due to the high capacity magazine.  I'll admit that at this point in the movie I was pretty much convinced it was a Browning and the gun is hard to see clearly in this scene so my opinion may have been biased.  However, you should be able to determine that it is a P-35 based on the bar scene alone.  I've heard of an article (Guns and Ammo, I think) that listed the Colt 1911 as his auto pistol in Raiders.  They may be the experts and I'm just an amateur "pistollero" but I really think they were mistaken.  Take a look and let me know what you think.   :)

: -Browning

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