Re: an answer...

Posted by Anejo Joe from mlknfrw1.milliken.com on August 20, 1999 at 10:22:46:

In Reply to: Re: an answer... posted by Nick Kismet on August 18, 1999 at 14:04:48:

It was very possible that the Knight was a Templar. The fact that he had a beard indicates he was most likely a Templar, since their order was required to wear beards and keep their hair close-shaven, the opposite of the general polulation. Templars provided banking services to many of the Kings of Europe, so education was mandatory. But the bankers were generally lay members of the order. As a fighting knight in residing in the Kingdom of Jerusalem, his education would have been in arms rather than books. Even in the early 1300's Jacques De Molay, Grand Master of the "The Poor Fellow Soldiers of Christ and the Temple of Solomon” was illiterate.

: Ummm...
: This guy wasn't just a foot soldier. He likely was a member of a religious order, and quite prominent in the crusade armies, so his speaking Latin is by no means unlikely.
: Furthermore, since Latin was taught in American high schools at least into the 1950's, it is quite likely that all of the prinicple characters in the grail cavern would have had a working knowledge of Latin, including Donovan.
: So, maybe (using Hollywood logic) maybe they were all speaking Latin, and we were just given a voice over translation.

: If this were the silliest thing about that scene, I could forgive the movie...However, in my opinion, everything that happened after Indy entered the grail cave ruined the ending of a perfectly good movie.

: In answer to a different question...
: Based on some info from the KtE himself:

: KtE is an abbreviation of Knight Errant, Cym is a shortened form of the

: ancient Welsh word Cymbrogi, and SOCAE is an acronym of the Latin
: phrase
: Sodalitas Ordo Calix Argentum Equites.

: The last part, as nearly as I can figure, means Social Order of the Kinghts of the Silver Chalice.
: I keep stumbling over Cymbrogi, though it seems to have something to with "brother" or "wisdom"

: Maybe the KtE will take pity on me, now that I am sending away to buy his book.

:
: : You are right. The first Crusade was mainly composed of Norman French, French, Flemish, and Provencial soldiers. Even the term Knight was not applicable at this time. He would probably have spoken either an archaic French, or Provencial Languedoc, and since he was involved with the grail, the latter is a safe bet. It's not likely that anyone other than a cleric or a monk would have been fluent in latin. Indy would probably have been familiar with at least the basics of Medieval languages, and Henry Sr. most certainly would.

: : : For starters, this is not an Arthurian era knight. He's from the Crusades, a good 600 years later.
: : : Second, and this part I don't remember for sure, but wasn't he French?
: : : Whatever language he spoke at home in his youth, a Medieval knight of his standing would have to be fluent in Latin. It's hinted that Indy knows classical Latin. Ergo, they had a method of communication.

: : : : At the end of "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" when Indy meets the Grail warrior how would they have communicated? Shouldn't the warrior speak only in olde English? Even though he and Indy both essentially speak the same language, the difference between twentieth century American-English and the English spoken by a soldier of Arthurian times would be considerable. Indy, being a professor of archeology, would have little trouble understanding the old man but the old soldier should have been baffled by Indy's speech. Shouldn't Indy have been forced to change the way he speaks in order to communicate with the Grail warrior?

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: It was very possible that the Knight was a Templar. The fact that he had a beard indicates he was most likely a Templar, since their order was required to wear beards and keep their hair close-shaven, the opposite of the general polulation.  Templars provided banking services to many of the Kings of Europe, so education was mandatory.  But the bankers were generally lay members of the order.  As a fighting knight in residing in the Kingdom of Jerusalem, his education would have been in arms rather than books.  Even in the early 1300's Jacques De Molay, Grand Master of the "The Poor Fellow Soldiers of Christ and the Temple of Solomon” was illiterate.

: 
: : Ummm...
: : This guy wasn't just a foot soldier.  He likely was a member of a religious order, and quite prominent in the crusade armies, so his speaking Latin is by no means unlikely.
: : Furthermore, since Latin was taught in American high schools at least into the 1950's, it is quite likely that all of the prinicple characters in the grail cavern would have had a working knowledge of Latin, including Donovan.
: : So, maybe (using Hollywood logic) maybe they were all speaking Latin, and we were just given a voice over translation.

: : If this were the silliest thing about that scene, I could forgive the movie...However, in my opinion, everything that happened after Indy entered the grail cave ruined the ending of a perfectly good movie.

: : In answer to a different question...
: : Based on some info from the KtE himself:

: : KtE is an abbreviation of Knight Errant, Cym is a shortened form of the

: : ancient Welsh word Cymbrogi, and SOCAE is an acronym of the Latin
: : phrase 
: : Sodalitas Ordo Calix Argentum Equites.

: : The last part, as nearly as I can figure, means Social Order of the Kinghts of the Silver Chalice.
: : I keep stumbling over Cymbrogi, though it seems to have something to with "brother" or "wisdom"

: : Maybe the KtE will take pity on me, now that I am sending away to buy his book.

: : 
: : : You are right.  The first Crusade was mainly composed of Norman French, French, Flemish, and Provencial soldiers.  Even the term Knight was not applicable at this time.  He would probably have spoken either an archaic French, or Provencial Languedoc, and since he was involved with the grail, the latter is a safe bet.  It's not likely that anyone other than a cleric or a monk would have been fluent in latin.  Indy would probably have been familiar with at least the basics of Medieval languages, and Henry Sr. most certainly would.

: : : : For starters, this is not an Arthurian era knight. He's from the Crusades, a good 600 years later.
: : : : Second, and this part I don't remember for sure, but wasn't he French?
: : : : Whatever language he spoke at home in his youth, a Medieval knight of his standing would have to be fluent in Latin. It's hinted that Indy knows classical Latin. Ergo, they had a method of communication.

: : : : : At the end of "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" when Indy meets the Grail warrior how would they have communicated? Shouldn't the warrior speak only in olde English? Even though he and Indy both essentially speak the same language, the difference between twentieth century American-English and the English spoken by a soldier of Arthurian times would be considerable. Indy, being a professor of archeology, would have little trouble understanding the old man but the old soldier should have been baffled by Indy's speech. Shouldn't Indy have been forced to change the way he speaks in order to communicate with the Grail warrior?

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