I have to agree, too....very well said, my friend.

Posted by Indydawg from 168.9.41.100 on March 08, 2001 at 11:55:03:

In Reply to: Agreed posted by Michaelson on March 08, 2001 at 09:05:34:

And quite the diplomat, today, too aren't we??!?;-)
Regards!
Indydawg

: I've just kept quiet through this whole thing, as I figured it would flame out by now. It usually does, but attacks are indeed uncalled for, especially against Patterson. I feel personally responsible for placing him in this situation, as it was I who asked him to come into the FS project in the first place, as it was very apparent the jacket was indeed his passion. I also kept quiet when he mentioned that another regular at the forum had been told by Peter about the infamous "Kepler" original in his stock. I was the other individual who was told this during TWO phone calls Peter made to me a month ago. If you want to call ME a liar, then I consider myself in good company, as Patterson would be the other liar in this "incident". I also find it interesting about the research being "dissed" that was done by Austin and DeWayne. These differences were being discuss in 1997 here at the forum, siting the same differences you discovered by folks such as Indiana G.J.R., RaiderOfTheLostArk, just to mention a couple, so though your research is notable, you're not the first by any stretch of the imagine. The BIG difference between what we have done (I include myself in the group that Austin and DeWayne occupy) and Patterson's research is that he had access to digital equipment and technicians who could actually MEASURE from movie images, photo shots, etc., where we all were indeed discussing things we had NO scale to work with. Some had a better eye to scale (a nod to Austin here), where others were WAY off (a nod to ME here), but it was all opinion. Of course, it was all just discussion as what, exactly, could we do WITH that information? The only vendor in the market was Wested, and all we had was the COA, so there you go. The story of the jacket is STILL evolving, and if Patterson still plans to try and write the history as we've been able to ferret out the details at this late date, good for him. I, for one, would not as all it will probably do is just start MORE flaming of folks who have strong opinions. Even documented proof doesn't make any difference, as Patterson has produced MORE than once, as well as MK who is directly in the business itself, and I also thank for ALL his support of our strange hobby. I would just suggest everyone backing down and letting FS, Wings, and FS offer what they have, and realize that what is currently being offered by ALL three companies are based on notes and research supplied to them BY Patterson and Kepler within the past 6 months. No one in the history of this hobby, in my opinion, has had more directly fan impact than these three...Lee Kepler, Patterson, and MK. Several of us have had a smattering of success giving hints here and there to manufacturers, so please don't think I'm overlooking anyone elses hard work. But if you step back and look at the changes that have been made to product, and can trace it cirectly back to one or more's individual effort, and all out of their own pockets and on their own time, well, I believe you'll come to the same conclusions. Now I'll sit back again. Once again, Patterson, I'm sorry I put you behind this eight ball, but we did discuss the possibilities a year ago, and sadly this time I was right. Regards to all. Michaelson

: : Ok, I re-read the string that got Patterson going. I can understand Austin and Dwayne being a LITTLE peaved at their research being so easily dismissed. I'll have to side with Austin on ONE thing; it was always clear to me that the straps were attached to the face of the rear panel, not under. And Dwayne is right in being upset at the barrage of attacks on Peter with the early advent of Flight Suits; I felt the same way. Thing is, guys, we've ALL studied the movie for YEARS and drawn our own conclusions. Patterson's conclusions came from FIRST HAND EXAMINATION OF AN ORIGINAL. Had his research been based on blurred motion and quick shots on television he probably would have been dismissed, as well. Discrepancies between FS and Patterson's original? It's known that this jacket was a stunt jacket. On a low budget film such as 'Raiders' I'm sure all of the prototypes were kept around and used for stunt sequences. At one time I recall Patterson saying that the rear sleeve seam in relation to the shoulder panel seam affected the way the pleats worked. The jacket he examined had matching seams. Maybe FS tried that and found this configuration did not work. Maybe this is why Patterson's jacket became a stunt jacket, in line with my theory. As far as Patterson keeping us in the dark? NEVER has he done this! The olny time he came close was in the beginning when he made the project known but was prohibited from revealing the potential manufacturer for legal reasons. The very DAY he was given the go-ahead he posted the FS info. As far as doubting Patterson as an "expert"? An expert is someone who has, through first hand examination and intense study, acquired a great deal of information on a given subject. He fits this bill, so what would you call him? I didn't take Dwayne's post as an attack on FS or Patterson's efforts where they're concerned, but as an attack on his credibility concerning the Keppler story. THAT... was unfounded and uncalled for. There's no disputing that Lee was the first to locate Peter and reveal Wested to us. Lee designed the Wested jacket? Hardly. He copied what Peter had designed, nothing more. At best, he refreshed Peter's memory. I'm not attacking Lee here, just giving the matter perspective. Lee has done us a great service, no doubt. Patterson never claimed that Lee "designed" the jacket, he only said that Peter had been supplied with Lee's prototype for consideration. Peter had patterns but no finished product to judge it against. You guys make it sound like Patterson flat out said that Lee Keppler designed Peter's jacket in an attempt to debunk Wested in favor of FS. Given his investment of time and personal resources into the FS project this theory might make sense; from a "mentally ill conspiracy freak" point of view. In closing, guys stating observations on a forum and dedicating a chunk of your life to acctually PROVING them AND creating a product based on them are two different things. That is why Patterson is our "expert". If you want to bitch about FS, fine. In the end, it's a product; Patterson's brainchild, but FS's product. No one will condemn you for criticizing a product. But to attack, insult and slander a man who has bent over backwards for all of us is wrong, no matter how you look at it. My additional two cents....

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: And quite the diplomat, today, too aren't we??!?;-)  
: Regards!
: Indydawg

: : I've just kept quiet through this whole thing, as I figured it would flame out by now. It usually does, but attacks are indeed uncalled for, especially against Patterson. I feel personally responsible for placing him in this situation, as it was I who asked him to come into the FS project in the first place, as it was very apparent the jacket was indeed his passion. I also kept quiet when he mentioned that another regular at the forum had been told by Peter about the infamous "Kepler" original in his stock. I was the other individual who was told this during TWO phone calls Peter made to me a month ago. If you want to call ME a liar, then I consider myself in good company, as Patterson would be the other liar in this "incident". I also find it interesting about the research being "dissed" that was done by Austin and DeWayne. These differences were being discuss in 1997 here at the forum, siting the same differences you discovered by folks such as Indiana G.J.R., RaiderOfTheLostArk, just to mention a couple, so though your research is notable, you're not the first by any stretch of the imagine. The BIG difference between what we have done (I include myself in the group that Austin and DeWayne occupy) and Patterson's research is that he had access to digital equipment and technicians who could actually MEASURE from movie images, photo shots, etc., where we all were indeed discussing things we had NO scale to work with. Some had a better eye to scale (a nod to Austin here), where others were WAY off (a nod to ME here), but it was all opinion. Of course, it was all just discussion as what, exactly, could we do WITH that information? The only vendor in the market was Wested, and all we had was the COA, so there you go. The story of the jacket is STILL evolving, and if Patterson still plans to try and write the history as we've been able to ferret out the details at this late date, good for him. I, for one, would not as all it will probably do is just start MORE flaming of folks who have strong opinions. Even documented proof doesn't make any difference, as Patterson has produced MORE than once, as well as MK who is directly in the business itself, and I also thank for ALL his support of our strange hobby. I would just suggest everyone backing down and letting FS, Wings, and FS offer what they have, and realize that what is currently being offered by ALL three companies are based on notes and research supplied to them BY Patterson and Kepler within the past 6 months. No one in the history of this hobby, in my opinion, has had more directly fan impact than these three...Lee Kepler, Patterson, and MK. Several of us have had a smattering of success giving hints here and there to manufacturers, so please don't think I'm overlooking anyone elses hard work. But if you step back and look at the changes that have been made to product, and can trace it cirectly back to one or more's individual effort, and all out of their own pockets and on their own time, well, I believe you'll come to the same conclusions. Now I'll sit back again. Once again, Patterson, I'm sorry I put you behind this eight ball, but we did discuss the possibilities a year ago, and sadly this time I was right. Regards to all. Michaelson

: 
: : : Ok, I re-read the string that got Patterson going. I can understand Austin and Dwayne being a LITTLE peaved at their research being so easily dismissed. I'll have to side with Austin on ONE thing; it was always clear to me that the straps were attached to the face of the rear panel, not under. And Dwayne is right in being upset at the barrage of attacks on Peter with the early advent of Flight Suits; I felt the same way. Thing is, guys, we've ALL studied the movie for YEARS and drawn our own conclusions. Patterson's conclusions came from FIRST HAND EXAMINATION OF AN ORIGINAL. Had his research been based on blurred motion and quick shots on television he probably would have been dismissed, as well. Discrepancies between FS and Patterson's original? It's known that this jacket was a stunt jacket. On a low budget film such as 'Raiders' I'm sure all of the prototypes were kept around and used for stunt sequences. At one time I recall Patterson saying that the rear sleeve seam in relation to the shoulder panel seam affected the way the pleats worked. The jacket he examined had matching seams. Maybe FS tried that and found this configuration did not work. Maybe this is why Patterson's jacket became a stunt jacket, in line with my theory. As far as Patterson keeping us in the dark? NEVER has he done this! The olny time he came close was in the beginning when he made the project known but was prohibited from revealing the potential manufacturer for legal reasons. The very DAY he was given the go-ahead he posted the FS info. As far as doubting Patterson as an "expert"? An expert is someone who has, through first hand examination and intense study, acquired a great deal of information on a given subject. He fits this bill, so what would you call him? I didn't take Dwayne's post as an attack on FS or Patterson's efforts where they're concerned, but as an attack on his credibility concerning the Keppler story. THAT... was unfounded and uncalled for. There's no disputing that Lee was the first to locate Peter and reveal Wested to us. Lee designed the Wested jacket? Hardly. He copied what Peter had designed, nothing more. At best, he refreshed Peter's memory. I'm not attacking Lee here, just giving the matter perspective. Lee has done us a great service, no doubt. Patterson never claimed that Lee "designed" the jacket, he only said that Peter had been supplied with Lee's prototype for consideration. Peter had patterns but no finished product to judge it against. You guys make it sound like Patterson flat out said that Lee Keppler designed Peter's jacket in an attempt to debunk Wested in favor of FS. Given his investment of time and personal resources into the FS project this theory might make sense; from a "mentally ill conspiracy freak" point of view. In closing, guys stating observations on a forum and dedicating a chunk of your life to acctually PROVING them AND creating a product based on them are two different things. That is why Patterson is our "expert". If you want to bitch about FS, fine. In the end, it's a product; Patterson's brainchild, but FS's product. No one will condemn you for criticizing a product. But to attack, insult and slander a man who has bent over backwards for all of us is wrong, no matter how you look at it. My additional two cents....

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